December 3, 2014
Did people really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal
I have been aware of this letter for quite some time, but due to the fact that most of the articles I post are from current news sources, it has not been mentioned on this site before.
Many claim that at time of the removal of the Marbles Elgin was merely doing the same as many others & that it was not called into question. There are various things that suggest this is not the case, but the argument is still pushed as fact by many supporters of retention of the sculptures.
A letter from Robert Adair (who was in charge of British affairs in Constantinople in 1809 – 1810) clearly in a response to a request from Lord Elgin. It appears that Elgin had asked Adair for a letter to help to bolster his claim for the Marbles, although as no copy of this request exists, it is hard to know exactly what the request was.
Adair’s reply to Elgin was clear – “that the Porte absolutely denied your having any property in those marbles. By this expression I understood the Porte to mean that the persons who had sold the marbles to your Lordship had no right so to dispose of them.”
From this wording, it seems fairly clear that to Adair at least (and he was a senior diplomat on the ground in the country that was supposed to have permitted Elgin to remove the sculptures), that Elgin had absolutely no legal entitlement to the sculptures whatsoever.
You can read a much more in-depth analysis of this letter, along with photos of the original on Theodore Theodorou’s website.
Below is the full text of the letter.
From:
AdairToElgin.com
July 31st 1811
My Lord
In answer to your Lordship’s enquiry respecting the marbles collected by your Lordship at Athens, and for leave to transmit which to this country I was directed by the Sec(retary) of State for foreign affairs to apply to the Turkish government, I have to inform your Lordship that Mr Pisani more than once assured me that the Porte absolutely denied your having any property in those marbles. By this expression I understood the Porte to mean that the persons who had sold the marbles to your Lordship had no right so to dispose of them.
At the same time I beg leave to add that this communication was not made to me in any formal conference with the Turkish ministers.
I have the honour to be,
my Lord,
your Lordship’s most obed(ien)t
and humble serv(an)t
R. Adair
- Arrogance & duplicity – the British loan of the Parthenon Marbles : December 7, 2014
- Newly discovered letter indicates that Elgin had no right to remove the Parthenon Sculptures : November 6, 2002
- Turkey wants 1700 year old marble head returned from London’s V&A museum : March 19, 2012
- New Zealand parliament urges Britain to return Elgin Marbles : May 31, 2007
- Turkey makes official claim on British Museum artefact : April 27, 2006
- Property of the former king of Greece : January 23, 2007
- Feldmann case legal details : June 26, 2005
- Spurious arguments about the Elgin Marbles : June 30, 2009
HusaJaakko said,
12.03.14 at 9:10 am
RT @elginism: Blog post: Did people at the time really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal? Adair’s letter suggest otherwise http://…
fergusmacphail said,
12.03.14 at 9:27 am
RT @elginism: Blog post: Did people at the time really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal? Adair’s letter suggest otherwise http://…
artrecovery said,
12.03.14 at 9:48 am
RT @elginism: Blog post: Did people at the time really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal? Adair’s letter suggest otherwise http://…
rogueclassicist said,
12.03.14 at 10:26 am
Did people really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal
http://t.co/8E8wYufknq
GuyChamberland said,
12.03.14 at 11:26 am
RT @rogueclassicist: Did people really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal
http://t.co/8E8wYufknq
SteveKay said,
12.03.14 at 12:46 pm
“.. in February, 1810, .. a new firman gave permission for the export ..”
magistraberg said,
12.03.14 at 3:04 pm
RT @rogueclassicist: Did people really think Elgin’s removal of marbles was legal
http://t.co/8E8wYufknq
Matthew said,
12.03.14 at 3:23 pm
Supposedly – but nobody has ever seen a copy of it – not even a dodgy translated copy…
SteveKay said,
12.03.14 at 9:32 pm
It is quite clear that the marbles exported in 1810 would not have left port without full, formal and legal permission having been granted.
Matthew said,
12.05.14 at 11:12 am
MacGregor tried that one too – the “it must be legal because nobody stopped me” argument. It seems a fairly weak way to prove any sort of legitimacy of ownership.
Of course, one could argue that the legality is not the issue anyway – Whether or not they were legally acquired, the British Museum has an overwhelming moral obligation to return them.
Angelos Melatos said,
12.05.14 at 2:56 pm
Angelos Melatos liked this on Facebook.
SteveKay said,
12.06.14 at 12:21 am
The Greek Government and campaigners worldwide have a moral obligation not to persistently repeat as fact that the marbles were stolen or in anyway exported illegally if there is not the evidence to back that serious accusation up.
The idea of permanently removing them from the British Museum (an action that would be in breach of the British Museum Act 1963 unless or until a new act was passed through Parliament) to be placed in a museum in Athens is purely a matter of personal opinion.
Matthew said,
12.06.14 at 9:06 am
Elgin never presented a Firman that allowed anything other than to remove pieces that were lying on the ground, to make sketches & to take casts. All else was mission creep.
The British acquired them by an act of parliament. If they are minded to return them, it is just as easy to create a new act that allows their deaccessioning.
Steve Kay said,
12.09.14 at 11:33 pm
Not stolen then?